RUN HIDE FIGHT Surviving an Active Shooter

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Texas2Step · 7 years ago

I saw this video in an optional class at my workplace. I work in a university library; we are not permitted to carry firearms on campus, even though both state law and the US Constitution protect that right. The two police officers who gave the class said that if civilians had firearms in such a situation, there would be more danger. I guess they think we would all just shoot blindly, killing everyone around us in an attempt to hit the killer.

They ignored the fact, (and I did not have time to stay and bring it up :sad: ,) that sixteen years ago, about twenty yards from the room we were in for the class, a librarian, Steve, had been shot and killed by a stalker. The young man had threatened his life, and had been following him for some time, (obsessed former lover) yet university rules forbade staff from carrying firearms. Had Steve opted for self-defense, he would have lost his job. The young man entered his office and shot him five times, using the last bullet in the gun on himself.

Another librarian, Devin, who worked here took a job at a local community college library, as did a temp librarian, Alan, who had also worked here. A few years ago, Alan, angry at Devin, his boss, for telling him what to do, came into the workplace, pulled a gun and shot Devin. In that case, it is less likely that a firearm would have saved Devin, but he would have had more chance than he did.

One of the best ways to reduce mass shootings in schools and workplaces would be to permit employees to exercise their God-given, (or natural, if you prefer,) right to carry a means of self defense, a firearm. The murder rate falls where citizens can defend themselves.

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James H. · 7 years ago
Average number of people killed when Police stop an Active Shooter - 18.8

Average number of people killed when a Civilian does it - 2.4

The numbers speak for themselves...
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whamprod · 7 years ago

At :59 into the video, the gunman enters a building which is posted with a compliant Texas PC 30.06 sign which forbids law abiding holders of a Texas CHL from entering the building with their weapon on their person......of course ensuring that only armed law-breakers will enter. And ironically, the bad guy does not violate PC 30.06 when he carries his gun into the building, because it ONLY applies to lawful CHL holders......who are no threat to anybody but the bad guy.

Run, hide, fight may be good advice, but telling a person who has undergone the training, passed the class, and paid the fees to obtain a Texas CHL that they can't carry their weapon into a building is fundamentally immoral, unless the building management are willing to also bear ALL of the legal liabilities of failing to protect the license holder from harm by having disarmed them.

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Christoph · 7 years ago

Wow, how about putting the janitor at the front desk - m60 machine gun ready and m203 for "non-lethal-force"? Do you really want an arms race in american schools, libraries, universities,...? Your natural right to kill everything and everybody in sight - in an act of self defense? Please, start using your brains!
I told my students (german school, but lots of kids from e.g. Kosovo, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, etc.) in a heated discussion after the first school shooting ever in Germany: I won't carry an arm to school, even if I would be allowed to do so. With a weapon in hand I'd rather wear my uniform - KFOR, ISAF, OEF or whatever mission. I teach or I wear a weapon to fight - both at the same time doesn't work for me. That is freedom for me. Everything else smells a lot like the old wild, wild west...
Christoph
(Captain, res.)

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Texas2Step · 7 years ago
You did not read thoroughly, Christoph, or you are unable to understand. Human beings have a natural right to self-defense, and in a world where firearms exist, and where criminals will always find a way to get them, honest people have every right to own and carry such weapons.

I live in Texas, where we must take a class and pass a shooting test to obtain a permit to carry a firearm. We should not have to go through all that to exercise our natural rights, but the fact that we do means we know how to use guns safely. We do not want to kill anyone; we only want to be able to defend life when life is threatened. There are over 80 million gun owners in the USA. If we were all the bloodthirsty killers you seem to think we are, then there would be millions of people killed here every year. Yet violent crime is lowest in the areas where honest citizens are armed. We are not the ones who carry out school and workplace shootings.

You live in a nation where, not so long ago, an evil dictator rounded up millions of innocent citizens and had them used for slave labor, and/or killed. Millions slaughtered in a very short time, and he was able to do it because he issued edicts that first took away citizens' firearms. I understand the Germans' desire to stamp out every memory of that time, but it is also valuable history, and you clearly need to learn from it.

So fine, don't carry a firearm. But I would bet you real money that if you found yourself in a workplace shooting situation and you found out that a coworker had a firearm, you would stick to that person like glue, hide behind her, and you'd be happy to let her defend you, because what you consider to be a high moral stand on firearms would, in time of real danger, leave you a helpless coward.
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  Raven 333 · 7 years ago
  
  Christoph DOES NOT represent the majority of the military!!! Texas2step I can GUARANTEE you this "Capt" is speaking without thought.. He should be hugging trees as most of my military countetparts would agree.. Even in Law Enforcement the force continuim teachs them force should be met wiih the same amount of force, from the lowest to deadly... I carry my military core values in everything I do, NOT JUST IN UNIFORM. If citizens in our great nation take a safety course to carry "LET THEM :-) CARRY"...
  
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  Milkshake Lover · 4 years ago
  
  :-? :-x :eek: :zzz :roll:
  
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TomcatTCH · 7 years ago

I'll never understand the mentality of the willful victim.

Arms race? That's one hell of a way to rationalize not being responsible for your safety.

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whamprod · 7 years ago

@Christoph, did you see me mention school in my post? No. I was talking about the BUSINESS building in the video—a video that produced in Houston, Texas, for the city of Houston, a city where licensed concealed carry is completely legal.....unlike the allegedly "free" european nations. Typical illiberal over reaction and hyperventilation whenever they get their panties in a twist......I really hate it when a typical liberal response is "use your brains" as if nobody else ever had a thought in their heads, and particularly when manifestly the respondent has failed to use their own brain. NOWHERE did I say YOU must carry your weapon everywhere. What I said was that it was immoral to require ME to disarm when I am no threat. And by the way, former Major Nidal Malik Hasan had a target rich environment ON AN ARMY BASE exactly because regulations forbid even qualified military from carrying a personal weapon. Puh-leeze! Wild west arguments are a red herring, and a stupid one at that.

Everywhere in the U.S. that licensed concealed carry has been enacted, the murder rates have decreased. Three cities in the U.S. with the absolute highest murder rates are Chicago, Detroit, and Washington DC—ironically cities with the most stringent and draconian and illiberal gun control laws in the nation. As for your uniform (and thank you for your service), the 2nd Amendment wasn't written to protect YOUR right as a uniformed soldier to keep and bear arms. It was written to protect MY right as a citizen to keep and bear arms. Do your research, and then ask yourself, did you take your oath to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC seriously?

I don't care whether or not you choose to exercise a fundamental human right, a right which exists simply because you breath air and are alive, NOT because some bureaucrat gave it to you. But your suggestion that I should not exercise MY right has no more validity in this context than if I were to insist you do not practice your right to free speech—another right you have simply because you are a living human being. That's a silly argument, based in pure emotion, and absent any logic.

It is about the CHOICE to exercise a right, or to not exercise it. The liberal response is to try and abolish any right they don't choose to exercise, primarily motivated out of fear, and a wish that big brother would take care of everything for you. Well, you cannot have freedom without risk. There is no way to separate the two. Here is a brief reference I would recommend for your consumption. Pay special attention to where Germany falls in the represented statistics: http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/02/economic-freedom-the-freedom-to-choose/

Have a nice day, and since your reaction is hysteria, I've no use for any further conversation as it would be a giant waste of my time.....except to say, "give everyone a break and get over yourself."

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Josh · 7 years ago
[quote name="whamprod"]Major Nidal Malik Hasan had a target rich environment ON AN ARMY BASE exactly because regulations forbid even qualified military from carrying a personal weapon. Puh-leeze! Wild west arguments are a red herring, and a stupid one at that.

[The] 2nd Amendment wasn't written to protect YOUR right as a uniformed soldier to keep and bear arms. It was written to protect MY right as a citizen to keep and bear arms. Do your research...

I don't care whether or not you choose to exercise a fundamental human right, a right which exists simply because you breath air and are alive, NOT because some bureaucrat gave it to you. But your suggestion that I should not exercise MY right has no more validity in this context than if I were to insist you do not practice your right to free speech—another right you have simply because you are a living human being.[/quote]
The "Wild West" is not so much a red herring as an utter Straw Man. The so-called "Wild West" starts at Plymouth and Jamestown and continues to the Bering Strait, in the minds of the Euro- and Europhillic-elite of the Left, as of 1604 or so (Canada seems to have filed for a waiver).

Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
The Jihadi Treason and Plot,
I know of no reason
Why this Jihadi Treason
Should ever be forgot.
Major Hassan, at Texas' Fort Hood
Sat under an Imam who sought no man's good.
To replace Constitution with Sharia Law
By small arms fire and a “Great is Allah!”
By God's grace he was brought down
By an unburqa’d blonde with a badge and a gun.
From every mountain-side, let freedom ring!
Hulloa boys, hulloa boys, God be our King!

(2010, by myself. Share as you please.)
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WILLIAM BECKER · 7 years ago

I AM A DISABLED PERSON WHO HAS BEEN GIVING THOT TO MY SAFETY. I AM CONSIDERING TRAINING AND ARMING MYSELF. THOTS? THANKS

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Texas2Step · 7 years ago
Do it, do it, Do it! There are plenty of evil people who do not hesitate to target a disabled person, robbing, beating, even killing, someone who can't fight back. If you can control a firearm, get one and learn to use it. You'll be far better able to defend yourself and your home, and target shooting is boodles of fun.
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George C. · 7 years ago

During the "Run" phase, people are dying
During the "Hide" phase, people are dying.
During the "Fight" phase People are probably dying. So, I think it might be wise to toss out the "Run" and "Hide" phases and immediately have everybody go into the "Fight" mode in these active shooter situations. Some may die, but probably fewer will die of wounds to the back, or while cowering under a desk.
Just a thought...

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Christoph · 7 years ago

O.K. guys, relax, and I promise I'll use irony less often...
@whamprod: I gave examples from school because that's what I know quite well and because a school-shooting was mentioned IN the video.
Regarding statistics - well, quite often you can use them for and against a case, you have to look at the details. Take Britain as an example: crime skyrocketed after the government took away pretty much all weapons from its citizens. Not a good idea, I would say. But here we're talking about weapons at home, usually for hunting, self defense or as collectors items (few handguns, more rifles).
Why concealed carry? Because YOU want to protect YOUR rights? What about the rest to the nation? Oh, I see it coming - I'm a liberal, a socialist because I think a little bit about my fellow human beings and not just my EGO? Ok, use YOUR concealed gun. That's YOUR right. But can YOU carry the consequences? Killing a person, maybe even innocent bystanders; someone grabbing YOUR gun to misuse it?
Remember Murphy's Law: Professionals are predictable - the world is full of dangerous amateurs. Active shooter is a police and SWAT team's mission - not yours, not mine.

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TomcatTCH · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]Remember Murphy's Law: Professionals are predictable - the world is full of dangerous amateurs. Active shooter is a police and SWAT team's mission - not yours, not mine.[/quote]
To believe in that is to accept all of the deaths until the police and/or SWAT show up.

But even worse, it's just plain wrong. Many shootings have been stopped by the "amateurs". Gun's ain't rocket surgery. Yes, good, quality training can lead to good, quality skills with regard to the "professionals", whomever you might lump into that category, but the same is true of the "amateurs".

I don't understand your quest to leave the fighting to others.

You obviously don't understand. You believe in group rights and group responsibilities, seemingly without the individual being responsible unless designated, and certainly without the individual's rights figuring into it at all.

All I can say is, that makes me sad. But it's not convincing.

The right of folks to die until their appointed protectors begin protecting them is not a happy thought to me.

I'll pass, thanks.
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Texas2Step · 7 years ago
Oh, you are being egotistical BIG TIME, Christioph. You assert that you are oh, so concerned about all the innocent human beings we who carry firearms will shoot. What about the 1.5 - 2 million times each year that firearms are used in the US to save lives, almost always without a shot being fired? Why are those lives worth nothing to you? (Research the work of Dr. Gary Kleck, John Lott, et al; it's online - the anti-gun ownership organizations have not been able to refute it.)

You use typical anti-gun rhetoric, creating wild scenarios, such as our guns being taken from us and used on us and others, or wild gunfights in which innocent bystanders are gunned down, without reference to reality. These things DO NOT happen. In the US, where we have more freedom to keep and bear arms than any other nation I can think of, those arms in the hands of honest citizens, and the police, SAVE LIVES.

Pull your self-righteous head out of your holier-than-thou ass, Christoph. The police and SWAT teams are usually great - God bless them for what they do - but they can't always be there when we need them; I carry a gun because a cop weighs too much, and won't fit in my purse. I have firearms because I have a basic human right to have them. With my fellow firearms owners, I hope and pray that I will never have to raise a gun against another human being. But if another human being raises one against me or a loved one, I'm damn sure going to do my best to shoot first, and to shoot straight. You can cower, whimpering in the corner, until the shooter finds you or until the police show up and manage to get into the building. If I'm around, I'll even let you hide behind my skirts.
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Larry · 7 years ago

I agree that any business or organization that attempts to deny law-abiding citizens the right to defend themselves, by having a concealed weapon, should bear the full legal burden of compensation for damages that result from not being able to defend oneself in a violent situation.

The facts, and statistics that bear them out, are clear - armed citizens are the best way to stop a criminal (who is intent on injuring/killing others) from inflicting massive casualties. If there had been

or 4 movie goers with concealed weapons in the Aurora, CO theater, lives would have been saved.

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Christoph · 7 years ago

My last comment is for YOU, too.
By the way: Of course it's the bad guys who misuse the guns. But do you really want armed librarians and teachers running around in school? Get a guard, install metal detectors, etc. And don't offer people a gun when they open a bank account... (ok, that's irony again, sorry folks)
@Nazi-bashing: May I kindly remind you of the fact that some lawful american citizens killed oh so many Native Americans during the last few hundred years; What if they and the slaves in the south had had the chance to arm themselves properly to defend THEIR GOD_GIVEN RIGHT to LIVE FREE???

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Texas2Step · 7 years ago
Hi Christoph. Yes, I do want armed librarians and teachers around, because they will be the first line of defense for the children, and for those without the courage or foresight to arm themselves. What's wrong with having trained, responsible people carry firearms? A prospectice shooter is likely to think twice about walking into a school where most of the staff is armed and trained to take him out.

As for the Nazi-bashing, (I do hope you aren't Nazi-supporting,) my main point was that Hitler was able to round up and murder so many millions of citizens, in a very organized, methodical and deliberate way largely because he took firearms away from those citizens first. I do not deny there have been moral atrocities in this nation. The slaves were denied the right to self-defense, and that was wrong. The Native Americans frequently had guns, but they didn't have the numbers. Of course, killing them, unless they attacked first, was also wrong. No reasonable person denies history, wrong or right. But I notice that in your defense of them, you acknowledge exactly what we've been telling you. Guns keep us safe and free.

BTW, I am guessing that English is not your first language, so I'll take it upon myself to make a small correction. (I got my degree in English - I can;t help it.) You are using the word "irony" incorrectly. The word you want in these cases is "sarcasm."

Live and be well.
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  You are wrong with your assestment.
  I assume you are saying this to prove your point. In any way you are wrong.
  
  The German Reichswehr had fighter planes, bombers, high powered rifles, tanks...that's how they could do what they did, not by taking away a few hunting rifles (which has not happened, by the way).
  
  On the gun argument, Christoph is quite right with his points.
  And all that thugs will have guns anyway is bull-exctrement. If guns are outlawed and that law is enforced where should they get those guns from, then?
  And please don't bring up the comparison with drugs and liquor...you can't really make guns in your backyard or basement, can you? No? Thanks.
  
  Cheers
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  I'm sorry, no. First off, I'd like to point out that all you're offering are assertions, and if you'd like them taken seriously, you'll need some factual backing. Secondly, the german military machine didn't use tanks, fighters, or bombers to round up jews. They did it with men with guns. Men with guns fighting men with guns is a lot better than men with guns forcing men without guns to do anything they so desire... As the holocaust proved. Think that was an isolated instance? Certainly not. Here is a breakdown of the 262,000,000 people killed by their own governments in just the 20th century:
  http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM
  
  That thugs will have guns anyways is PROVEN, your assertion to the contrary. Guns are outlawed in Mexico, how's that working there?
  
  If banning guns worked, Washington, DC and New York City would be the safest cities in the country. Since 1976, till last year, it was illegal in Washington, DC to own any handguns or to keep any type of gun in your home unlocked and fully assembled. However, Washington, DC was the "murder capital of the United States."
  
  New York City has had severe gun control laws since 1911, yet it also ranks among the most dangerous places in the country. In both cities, violent criminals can easily obtain the most deadly weapons on the streets within minutes.
  
  A national gun ban won't help. With an estimated 220+ million guns now in the US, an unpoliceable 12,000 miles of borders and coastlines, and the world's largest stock of precision machine tools, criminals will always be able to buy, steal, or make guns and ammunition.
  
  A competent backyard mechanic can build a rifle or handgun. Even Afghan peasants, using tools considerably inferior to those in the Sears catalog, have built machine guns capable of firing Soviet AK-47 cartridges. It's not rocket science, it's a 600 year old technology.
  
  Illegal home production of handguns is already a fact of life; a BATF study found that one-fifth of the guns seized by police in Washington, DC were homemade.
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  No, I am sorry, no. Again, that is a BS argument.
  The Germans rounded the Jews up any way they could. Even if the Jews had guns, the Germans would've gotten them.
  Do you REALLY think that if the US Government wanted to get you you could have anything to stop them from doing so?
  Dude, they put a drone in the sky that kills you while you are taking a poop!
  
  Are you really comparing the US to Mexico? Really?
  
  Again, you are mistaken. Gun-free zones are not gun-free if you can drive 5 miles and get a gun. The ban in NYC and Washington DC doesn't work because a criminal can drive for half an hour and get a gun!
  
  You can't ban guns in 2 days, of course you need a long term plan.
  
  So let me get this straight: you are afraid that your neighbor will manufacture a homemade gun and come after you? Or that your everyday thug will start making his own guns in his grandma's backyard and come after you?
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  This makes twice in a row that you've made a batch of assertions, attempted emotional manipulation, and not cited ANYTHING to back your opinions.
  You clearly know nothing about warfare. I'm an 8 year military veteran, covering both before and after 9/11... To truly control a place, you need infantry. The reasons are the same as why they needed infantry to take the Jews. Really, if you didn't need infantry, why would we still have them? They're the most old-fashioned piece of "gear" still in use, today.
  
  Yes, I'm comparing the US to Mexico... Mexico is far more violent and lawless, and they allow NO private ownership of guns. Hell, their violence is spilling INTO this country, and it's their drug war that accounts for most of our shooting deaths. Legalize the drugs, and all this would become academic. Million dollar cartels don't last long against billion dollar greedy as hell pharmaceutical companies.
  
  "Again, you are mistaken. Gun-free zones are not gun-free if you can drive 5 miles and get a gun"
  By god, you got one right! And THAT is why only the law-abiding are disarmed in every 'gun free zone' (should read "victim disarmament zone")
  "The ban in NYC and Washington DC doesn't work because a criminal can drive for half an hour and get a gun!"
  Not even close. They don't have to go ANYWHERE. People bring the guns TO THEM.
  Welcome to economics 101. Demand... thus supply. Risks high? Price higher.
  "You can't ban guns in 2 days, of course you need a long term plan."
  How about a five year plan, Stalin?
  
  “Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control mans' appetite through legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not even crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our Government was founded.”
  ― Abraham Lincoln
  
  "So let me get this straight: you are afraid that your neighbor will manufacture a homemade gun and come after you? Or that your everyday thug will start making his own guns in his grandma's backyard and come after you?"
  
  Afraid? Not at all. Unless you've taken away my means to defend myself. But consider this: My brother shoots AIRSOFT with a guy who has had a running challenge on the radio for six years: they gave him one hour to assemble a working firearm out of parts he picked up at the local drug/hardware store, and shoot a cigar out of someone's mouth...
  He never failed once
  So with thousands of ACTUAL gunsmiths, armorers, and FFL holders, you think you can just put them out of business, and they won't still be making guns?
  Please. You live in a dream.
  The everyday thug knows he can move up in the criminal hierarchy if he's the first one to get going, making guns.
  
  Remember: "So banning guns will stop criminals? We should obviously ban heroin, cocaine and meth, too!"
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  It's good that you are a veteran and know about military matters. It is foolish to assume that I know nothing, though.
  You are right, to control a place you need infantry. Who was talking about controlling an area? We are talking about killing people. You don't need infantry for that.
  Where are your sources?
  
  Mexico also has corrupt and ineffective police, corrupt politicians, a security apparatus (prosecutors, judges, public officials) that is constantly undermined by cartels...don't you think that is the source for their situation?
  Oh no wait, it's the ban on guns...
  
  Where are they bringing these guns into NYC? Of course they can buy or steal them easily outside of NYC and bring them over. Again, my argument holds true.
  I was thinking more of 10 years.
  By the way, the fact that you are insulting me...I am just taking that as a sign that I am right and you don't have arguments.
  
  As I told you before, you need a long-term plan for that.
  
  You think everyday thugs are way smarter than they actually are.
  
  Again, that is a quote by people who want to beat their ideology into other peoples heads.
  Guns are not drugs. Guns are different. Harder to smuggle. Harder to fabricate. Easier to detect.
  It's like saying you can't ban people from owning protected animals because obviously it's not working on heroin, cocaine and meth!
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  You don't need infantry to kill the jews? When they're mixed in with your own people? Were you going to use the bombers then? Just... expect the nazis to bomb their own people because there were jews nearby?
  
  "Where are your sources?"
  For what? The infantry thing is common sense... Otherwise, scroll up.
  
  "Mexico also has corrupt and ineffective police, corrupt politicians, a security apparatus (prosecutors, judges, public officials) that is constantly undermined by cartels...don't you think that is the source for their situation?"
  How? We have all that too! Or did you think that "Operation Fast and Furious" was a marvelous and aboveboard idea?
  
  "Oh no wait, it's the ban on guns..."
  Uh, yeah. Tell me again about how the cartels are such problems, and about how well those gun bans are working.
  
  "You think everyday thugs are way smarter than they actually are."
  
  Do tell me your experience with "everyday thugs"...
  You only need 1 in 50 to know how to do this, and those are the ones who'll sell to the ones who pay with "YOUR plasma screen TV".
  I was also within the texas prison system for over 2 years. You'd be fucking shocked how many of those people have some really startling skills... You look at them and go "Why did you need to turn to crime? Man, you coulda made a living doing this!"
  
  "Where are they bringing these guns into NYC? Of course they can buy or steal them easily outside of NYC and bring them over. Again, my argument holds true."
  You might need to rephrase your argument, because so far I'm getting two different messages. One is that you want to BAN all guns, and the other is that you think you can make all guns DISAPPEAR.
  
  "I was thinking more of 10 years."
  And is there anywhere, ever, that made guns disappear? Cite something.
  
  "the fact that you are insulting me...I am just taking that as a sign that I am right and you don't have arguments."
  
  You think being likened to the last guy who had a long-term plan for perfectly controlling his country is an insult? Stop trying to perfectly control your country.
  hm, comment too long, splitting.
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  part 2
  
  "Guns are not drugs. Guns are different. Harder to smuggle. Harder to fabricate. Easier to detect."
  
  None of that is true! Guns are EASIER to make than meth, although some drugs grow straight out of the ground, and they have to monitor electricity usage and such, some guns are nothing more than a ballpoint pen and a .22 cartridge.
  Since you want my references, here's two:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
  https://www.google.com/search?q=zip+gun&hl=en&safe=off
  Check the images out, they're NOT harder to make than meth.
  
  "It's like saying you can't ban people from owning protected animals because obviously it's not working on heroin, cocaine and meth!"
  you can't MAKE protected animals! How do you not see what an invalid comparison this is?? You have to start with two go get any to sell. Not true with guns.
  
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James H. · 7 years ago
In Isreal, ALL the teachers are armed...by law...and well-trained.

Number of kids shot by teachers? ZERO

Number of kids who misbehave?? Pretty darn low
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  Texas2Step · 7 years ago
  
  Love it! Another reason for teachers to be armed in this, and all nations. I went to Catholic school, where we behaved or else, but if you can't have the old-time nuns, guns are the next best thing.
  
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  ant · 7 years ago
  
  YEAH!!! SHOOT THE MISBEHAVING KIDS!!! AND THE IMAMS!!! AND THE GERMANS!!! SHOOT EVERYONE EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!!!!! GUNS! GUNS! GUUUUUUUUUUNNNNSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  Wow, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris referred to as "misbehaving". I'm sure their memories are now complete.
  
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Bdoon · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]My last comment is for YOU, too.
By the way: Of course it's the bad guys who misuse the guns. But do you really want armed librarians and teachers running around in school? Get a guard, install metal detectors, etc. And don't offer people a gun when they open a bank account... (ok, that's irony again, sorry folks)
@Nazi-bashing: May I kindly remind you of the fact that some lawful american citizens killed oh so many Native Americans during the last few hundred years; What if they and the slaves in the south had had the chance to arm themselves properly to defend THEIR GOD_GIVEN RIGHT to LIVE FREE???[/quote]

Well right on for them if that occurred. It would have been a big change in history that is for sure. Unfortunately when Natives got guns from the Dutch (a Germanic people) before anyone else (the Iroquois) they turned them on other Natives (Hurons and other tribes in the Beaver Wars). John Brown did try to arm the slaves. the USA probably wouldn't exist and North America would be a better place. But who would have stopped the Axis Powers, Japan, Italy and Germany) in WW2...the Russians? Not with the Japanese attacking in the East because there were no Americans opposing them.
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  An even bigger change if we'd avoided entangling alliances, earlier. If we'd never entered WW1, WW2 wouldn't have happened as it did. No Weimar hyperinflation, no Hitler.
  I'm in favor of living in that world, but, alas, America, fuck yeah, interventionism.
  
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pyrodice · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]May I kindly remind you of the fact that some lawful american citizens killed oh so many Native Americans during the last few hundred years; What if they and the slaves in the south had had the chance to arm themselves properly to defend THEIR GOD_GIVEN RIGHT to LIVE FREE???[/quote]

That's an incredibly good point. I don't think anyone has pointed out in this thread yet that gun control was originally established so that the KKK could 'properly oppress' blacks. How do you think life might've been different if the bullies of that era had to worry that the next "negro boy" they were driving up on had a Colt .45 on him?
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Christoph · 7 years ago

Hello William,
safety is not just about carrying a gun around with you. Maybe ask a good police officer for advice. And a lawyer before you use excessive force...
Have you had any bad experiences in the past? Try to avoid dangerous places and situations, if possible, that works for me most of the time.

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William Becker · 7 years ago
Thanks to all who took the time to reply to my query.

I use a wheelchair for mobility and my disability effects my legs. I have felt as I have matured that I see myself becoming vulnerable to a physical altercation that simple defensive discussion won't suffice. As a first step I choose to carry a tactical knife openly.

Christoph I appreciate your concern, I have given the issues you raise thot and full discussion which is the purpose of concealed carry classes teach. To be certain I see this as a very serious undertaking. I am not a stranger to firearms as I lived in Viet Nam as a dependent during the war. They were our lifeline as help wasn't always available.

The main reason I am choosing to arm myself is social aspect of shooting. I feel the teaching I will partake is a tremendous benefit preparing me for a difficult day.

Cheers to all! Thanks for the discussion.
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  Doug · 7 years ago
  
  Mr. Becker, my hat's off to you. I am a military nurse and have taken the extra steps for additinal training in self defense and have extra memberships in a club that you might want to check out. They teach all phases of firearms and some unarmed combat. As a military officer, I am prepared for the worst, as a nurse I can empathise with your condition, as a man and father, I want to protect my loved ones. You can reach me at dhoust@live.com for more info on how I might be of further help.
  
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Henry Wood · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"] Try to avoid dangerous places and situations, if possible, that works for me most of the time.[/quote]

And how would the poor people of Aurora ever have imagined their local cinema to be a 'dangerous place and situation'?
Why do you people never live in the REAL World?
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  Where did the shooter get his guns from?
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  he STOLE them.
  It's important to note that only ONE spree-shooter in the past generation bought his guns himself, and that one did so illegally.
  And don't worry about it, because while you're focusing on guns instead of mental health, Timothy McVeigh is placing an order for 200 gallons of diesel and some farm supplies.
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  Ohh, really? He stole them?
  So, who did he steal them from?
  Ohh yeah, people who got their guns legally and didn't lock them away properly.
  
  Go figure!
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  Oh, you know how they were locked away? Do tell: Where did you get that information?
  Source or GTFO.
  You haven't cited anything yet. Anywhere.
  
  AND you're now blaming a murder victim for her own death.
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  How else could they have gotten them? Magically make them appear?
  
  I am blaming nobody, please keep your cool.
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  Well, for one, I've already shown that you can get guns anywhere, if you're not concerned with the laws. You know, those things "criminals" don't seem to be too concerned with. Otherwise, he could make one himself. Like I've said before, if a blacksmith without the technology the Pilgrims had can construct one, without the internet, an american schoolchild can, WITH it. Maybe you didn't catch the part where my brother's friend can go to the drugstore and build an ACCURATE gun inside a day.
  
  Of course you're blaming someone, you're blaming the gun-owner. She's also the murder victim. Inconvenient perhaps, but true.
  
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Henry Wood · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]Try to avoid dangerous places and situations, if possible, that works for me most of the time.[/quote]
This is absolutely the most pathetic advice I have ever seen given. "Avoid dangerous places and situations", Christoph says. Well, as most of these random shootings seem to take place in very public places like schools, malls, office blocks, and now cinemas, does Christoph really mean STOP GOING TO SUCH PLACES?
Christoph, it is time you stepped up and explained yourself. You "claim", that works for me, [Christoph]. So, are you, Christoph, saying you visit NONE of these places where mass shootings have occured? Are you really claiming that you stay "safe" by staying home all the time?
Your reasoning in your posts is truly pathetic and has no relation to the real world the rest of us live in.
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Texas2Step · 7 years ago
So avoiding dangerous places and situations works for you MOST of the time, Christoph? What has happened when that hasn't worked? I guess it wasn't bad enought to make you want to be able to defend yourself.
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Christoph · 7 years ago

Folks, why is it called RUN, HIDE, FIGHT? Am I a dumb ass if I decide it's better for myself (and maybe my co-workers, too) to get away from a dangerous situation? Your comments are only one-way: fight, fight, fight! Where's the freedom to choose...?

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Thomas · 7 years ago
With a weapon you do get the freedom to choose, you may still run or hide, without a weapon the choice is more limited, right?
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  Kev · 7 years ago
  
  [quote name="Thomas"]With a weapon you do get the freedom to choose, you may still run or hide, without a weapon the choice is more limited, right?[/quote]
  
  You should do all 3....Running & Hiding is very important whilst going through a reload....To which I should add, Communicating if you are fortunate enough to have a back-up compadre.
  
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Henry Wood · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]Folks, why is it called RUN, HIDE, FIGHT? Am I a dumb ass if I decide it's better for myself (and maybe my co-workers, too) to get away from a dangerous situation? [/quote]
Christoph, you seem to know all the answers, now tell me, had you been a patron of that cinema in Aurora, just how would you have coped any better than the other poor souls who were trying to flee when they were gunned down?
Also, please answer this next question honestly: If any patron in that cinema had been carrying a concealed weapon and was proficient in its use, might the end result have been different?
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  JT · 7 years ago
  
  To put more guns in a dark smoke filled room would be a recipe for making a horrible tragedy, even worse. And any educated gun owner with any experience knows that having a gun does not equal safety!! Also, what about bars? Should concealed weapons be allowed in establishments that serve alcohol? Because I would think any reasonable gun owner would recognize that the two do not belong together, EVER!!
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  MOST restaurants serve alcohol. Are you a fan of that "breakfast at dennys" bill they passed a few years back?
  
  Because my father left a gun in the car, as he was legally required to do, to go eat in an "alcohol serving establishment", and the car was broken into, the gun stolen.
  
  Good job: Your law put another gun in the hands of criminals where it would have been perfectly safe with Dad... Who is a certified NRA safety instructor.
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  if your dad didn't have a gun it wouldn't have been stolen ---> no guns for criminals
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  And if he'd been allowed to carry it with him --> no guns for criminals. The difference is one is what the owner desired, and one is what he was forced to do. See, YOU'RE responsible for that theft.
  I'm curious, are you in the habit of blaming the victims of crimes for their commission? You know: "the crook got the gun because you had it", or "You got raped because you dressed in an enticing way"...
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  You don't need to get all emotional and whiney here.
  The point here is that the argument "If you ban guns bad guys will always have a way of getting them" is just wrong. Bad guys get guns legally or by stealing them from "good guys".
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  Wow, pot, meet kettle. Sadly, you may not even recognize that it's been YOUR arguments relying on emotional appeals from square one.
  
  "The point here is that the argument "If you ban guns bad guys will always have a way of getting them" is just wrong. Bad guys get guns legally or by stealing them from "good guys"."
  
  You must be pretending we aren't having a conversation about Mexico up there. And one where gunsmiths didn't magically evaporate.
  1 in 5 guns confiscated in DC after the total ban were homemade. If it was a bigger area, the percentage would just go up... But you will NOT get everyone to agree that they don't need a gun for protection. How big are you? In a fight, are you sure you won't get your ass kicked? Do you believe that might makes right?
  
  Remember, we had THOUSANDS of years where there were no guns. Guns ended the Dark Ages. Guns allow people to move out from under feudal terrorism. Guns allow people to move about freely, even after the sun goes down. In short, guns allowed civilization as you know it, and now you want to kick the pillars out and hope the roof stays up.
  Maybe you somehow have no women in your family, but it's a pretty safe bet that you haven't asked them if they feel safe walking through dimly lit places where they know there are strange men anywhere nearby. Women CONSTANTLY feel vulnerable to men. Except when they know they can take them in a fight. The VAST majority of women won't do that, unarmed.
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  So every thugster is a secret gunsmith?
  
  Who makes these selfmade guns?
  I don't know the answer, but I am pretty sure it's gun-enthusiasts who believe guns are the pillar of modern civilization.
  
  You are wrong, I am sorry but I just don't know anymore what to say. Guns are not the pillars of modern civilization! Do you have any sources for that? Where do you get this info?
  
  I do have women in my family. In fact I come from a culture where women-issues are treated very seriously.
  I also come from a city where one could consider parts to be very dangerous. I have learned that you do not need a gun to protect yourself. Just don't walk in dim-lit alleys. This is not a women-men issue here. I feel uncomfortable, too, when I walk through that kind of alley and I try to avoid it. The women in my family avoid these kinds of situations.
  Why would you even want to provoke a situation where you have to use a gun?
  I don't own a gun (if I lived in the US I would, because you are right, every crazy man can get a gun right now), and amazingly no thugster I have ever met (I used to meet quite a lot because of where I lived) did not have a gun.
  
  Okay, so let's play this hypothetical situation out.
  You are walking down a dimly-lit alley, instead of avoiding it. You know shit is going down, so you already have your hand on your gun. Suddenly a thugster jumps out of a dark corner, gun already pointing at you. His buddy shows up from a corner in your back, again, gun already pointing at you.
  What do you do? How does a gun protect you?
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  "So every thugster is a secret gunsmith?"
  Stop putting words in my mouth, it makes your argument pathetic.
  No, when you outlaw guns, every gunsmith will be a criminal. And as I've said, it only takes about 1 in 50.
  
  "Who makes these selfmade guns?
  I don't know the answer, but I am pretty sure it's gun-enthusiasts who believe guns are the pillar of modern civilization."
  Or anybody with a digit IQ and access to a true value hardware store. But mostly, it's the government that you expect to protect you, when nobody can protect themselves.
  
  "You are wrong, I am sorry but I just don't know anymore what to say. Guns are not the pillars of modern civilization! Do you have any sources for that? Where do you get this info?"
  
  Amusing that you can make a blanket declaration with no factual backing, and then ask to see mine. Start making logical arguments, and not emotional appeals, and I'll take you much more seriously.
  The proof is pretty easy: During the dark ages, you couldn't travel from city to city without the very real fear of bandits. A group of men who were very strong, and felt that their strength made up for their unwillingness to work. In response, people banded together until there were militant governments, which could muster larger forces or people with bigger knives, or faster ones, and "clear out" the road, which was then claimed as the "king's highway". Guns, for the first time, allowed (as the Japanese said) a man with ten minute's training with a gun to defeat a man who had spent 20 years studying the art of the samurai. So I suppose the question I have to ask is this:
  Do you think that by virtue of being stronger or more skilled than you, that someone has a higher claim to your property than you do? And if not, how will you prevent them from taking it?
  
  "Just don't walk in dim-lit alleys."
  It is said that civilization is the force that allows you to walk down a dark alleyway and still feel safe. That's a good way to make my point.
  
  "Okay, so let's play this hypothetical situation out.
  You are walking down a dimly-lit alley, instead of avoiding it. You know shit is going down, so you already have your hand on your gun. Suddenly a thugster jumps out of a dark corner, gun already pointing at you. His buddy shows up from a corner in your back, again, gun already pointing at you.
  What do you do? How does a gun protect you?"
  
  You take your wallet, and throw it to the side of the front guy, continue your turn, moving laterally, and shoot the one behind you when he bends down to get it.
  Now you tell ME something: How are you better off in that situation if there are no guns?
  
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Troy · 7 years ago

About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person-about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26000* despite American citizens using guns to prevent crime almost 2,500,000 times every year.*(Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C.Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

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pyrodice · 7 years ago
Thanks for citing, I notice the gun-grabbing "feel-good" legislators in here cite emotion, but never facts.
For a very up-to-date chart on the outcomes of "spree shootings" when stopped by civilians versus by police, see here
http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

"The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33"

and

"The courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas was the only incident where the heroic civilian was killed. In that incident the hero was armed with a handgun and the villain was armed with a rifle and body armor. If you compare the average of people killed in shootings stopped by armed civilians and unarmed civilians you get 1.8 and 2.6 but that’s not nearly as significant as the difference between a proactive civilian, and a cowering civilian who waits for police."

Thanks.
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Heywood Jablomi · 7 years ago

I will never understand the victim mentality.

Somehow, it is not enough for victims to rely on a Nanny State to bear responsibility for their safety and security. It is not enough that they abdicate all responsibility for their own security.

Unbelievably, they have to presume to speak for the rest of us, too. They feel entitled to dictate to us, I suppose due to their superior moral qualities, and they feel as though it is utterly natural for them to decree that no one should be armed. Just the cops.

Well, you nimrods, this is a recipe for tyranny.

There sure are a lot of stupid people running around. And they sure do feel no compulsion to speak just for themselves. They think that they are smarter than the rest of us, they think that we "just do not get it." We are not smart enough to understand their superior moral views.

I fully support their right to be victims. In fact, I hope that more victims refuse to bear arms. Let them be the surprised, dead victims at the next mass shooting.

Those of us who elect to be responsible for our own security will take care of ourselves.

You see, I would never presume to speak for you. And now that I know how you feel, I will not bother trying to defend you, either. You deserve to reap what you sow.

Morons.

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Christoph · 7 years ago

@Troy As I said before: Whatever you want to prove or show - just use a couple of numbers... So are your numbers suggesting that police (11%) should be disarmed and citizens (2%) could take over their job? What are the numbers for the case discussed here - an active shooter scenario? Of course I'm less likely to hurt a bystander when I'm firing at an intruder at home (which I think is justified) whereas a police officer might have to use his weapon in a chaotic situation on a dark street or in a park.
@ Texas2Step: Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark (...) usually conveyed through irony or understatement. Most authorities distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence." (OED) You're right: I'm EFL and my degrees include English, industrial arts and teaching ;-)
Arming teachers and staff, to me seems like a last resort. All the teachers and parents I know personally (Midwest and Canada) would never ever want guns in a school (although they like hunting or shooting in a club, e.g.)
Germany the same (well, situation is different here, so that doesn't count). Regarding the 1930s: The Germans never had such an affinity to weapons (at home or concealed carry, I mean), so that wouldn't have helped a lot against this dictator. By the way, did you know that between 1921 and 1944 at least 41 attempts were made to kill him? None succeeded, unfortunately.
Regarding armed citizens running around and defending freedom: We won't find a solution or compromise here, I guess. So let's agree to disagree.

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Troy · 7 years ago
Response to a couple of your quotes. "your natural right to kill everything and everybody in sight-in an act of self defense" and, "Active shooter is a police and SWAT Teams mission-not yours, not mine. Also, those aren't "my" numbers. I understand facts are hard for you, but they are, nonetheless facts.
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Bdoon · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]@Troy As I said before: Whatever you want to prove or show - just use a couple of numbers... So are your numbers suggesting that police (11%) should be disarmed and citizens (2%) could take over their job? What are the numbers for the case discussed here - an active shooter scenario? Of course I'm less likely to hurt a bystander when I'm firing at an intruder at home (which I think is justified) whereas a police officer might have to use his weapon in a chaotic situation on a dark street or in a park.
@ Texas2Step: Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark (...) usually conveyed through irony or understatement. Most authorities distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence." (OED) You're right: I'm EFL and my degrees include English, industrial arts and teaching ;-)
Arming teachers and staff, to me seems like a last resort. All the teachers and parents I know personally (Midwest and Canada) would never ever want guns in a school (although they like hunting or shooting in a club, e.g.)
Germany the same (well, situation is different here, so that doesn't count). Regarding the 1930s: The Germans never had such an affinity to weapons (at home or concealed carry, I mean), so that wouldn't have helped a lot against this dictator. By the way, did you know that between 1921 and 1944 at least 41 attempts were made to kill him? None succeeded, unfortunately.
Regarding armed citizens running around and defending freedom: We won't find a solution or compromise here, I guess. So let's agree to disagree.[/quote]

Just one teacher proficient with a gun and armed would have saved all those poor Amish children who were slaughtered.

When the Quakers controlled the colony of Pennsylvania elected representative house (prior to the American Revolution) thousands of colonists in West Pennsylvania were slaughtered because the Quakers would not vote for armed resistance, thinking they could convince the Natives to be peaceful. I am not saying appropriation of Native lands was right. However I am saying that when you are a victim or even act like a victim (Quakers) you can cause the victimization of others.The weight of evidence is against you mein bruden. I agree assault weapons are going overboard but when I worked with street gans in Chcago in the 70s...they all had guns. They did not buy them in gunstores but from illicit dealers like The Oufit who had trunkfuls of stolen guns...I watched it happen. One of the reasons I no longer live in Chicago.
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pyrodice · 7 years ago
How about this? I just posted above, but then I saw your comment, and it bears addressing:

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

"The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33"

Maybe they don't want guns in a school, but I bet they want the ONLY gun to be held by the villain, even less... And want to see the next sunrise even more.
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Christoph · 7 years ago

Heywood - what are you talking about? Just because you know how to use a gun doesn't mean that that everybody else has to do the same. I know people who pretty much freak out just by the sight of a gun. Of course you must have the will to defend yourself - but what is the job of the police, none at all? What about kids, pregnant moms, elderly - all victim mentality? Give me a break...

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Josh · 7 years ago
[quote name="Christoph"]Heywood - what are you talking about? Just because you know how to use a gun doesn't mean that that everybody else has to do the same. I know people who pretty much freak out just by the sight of a gun. Of course you must have the will to defend yourself - but what is the job of the police, none at all? What about kids, pregnant moms, elderly - all victim mentality? Give me a break...[/quote]
Christof,

You and most anti-gunners often say that citizens should cower in fear and wait for the police to save them. This is terrible advice.

Ther Supreme Court determined that police have NO DUTY TO PROTECT. Read all about it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-police-have-no-obligation-to-protect-you-yes-really/

Shocking, huh? In the real world, you must be responsible for protecting yourself. Otherwise, accept victimhood.
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pyrodice · 7 years ago
This is the difference between these sides: We aren't going to FORCE you to have a gun, but somehow you think it's ok to force us NOT to.
In fact ,any time someone says guns make them nervous, I typically agree with them, and tell them that they shouldn't have one, then... The last thing I want to do is force a firearm into the hands of a nervous person.
My mother carries a .45 in her purse most times, so yes, elderly women are good examples. Or did you want them to fight off muggers with their purses, using them as a club?

And what ABOUT kids? How well were they protected the other day when nobody was armed to save them? Where were your police?
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  I don't think that this is a smart argument.
  Guns can kill people. I don't want to walk around wondering which whacko has a gun.
  And no, I don't get nervous around guns. I just don't believe it's your God given right to have one. It's a privilege, not a right.
  
  What about the kids if Lanza's mom did not have guns? What about the kids if she didn't take him shooting?
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  "It's a privilege, not a right."
  No.
  I'm an atheist, I don't believe in "god given" anything, but I know that ownership of property is a right, and guns are property. You also have a right to be secure in yourself, and your possessions, as well as the right to defend your life.
  Saying that you have the right to defend yourself but don't have the right to a gun is like saying "Well, you have a right to life, but that doesn't mean you get OXYGEN with it".
  
  I need you to understand that rights do not come from government, and government cannot take them away, or even grant new ones. Government can RECOGNIZE the existence of new rights, but cannot encroach on any of them. There's no "special status" for government: breaching a right is a "wrong". That's not a play on words, it's their original meaning.
  
  "What about the kids if Lanza's mom did not have guns?"
  Then he'd have gotten them elsewhere, and stop pretending otherwise.
  "What about the kids if she didn't take him shooting?"
  Hardly relevant, he clearly didn't learn the shooter safety rules, so it's not like he'd have missed out on those.
  What if someone took YOU shooting? Do you think that would make you want to murder babies? That's the equivalence you're alluding to...
  
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  Ilhan · 7 years ago
  
  Oh, they are just property and you have the right to have them?
  What about anti-aircraft guns? Fully automatic rifles? Tanks? Warplanes? Those are just property, after all!
  
  I agree. For me the UN Charta of Human Rights is something that cannot be taken away. Owning a gun is a privilege in my eyes, I am sorry.
  
  Yeah, where would he get that gun from? What if he could not steal a gun because nobody has a gun? Ever thought of that? Don't pretend like he could've made guns magically appear.
  Of course it is relevant! That way she showed him how to shoot, that guns exist and introduced him to the whole culture.
  
  I have actually gone shooting. It's a lot of fun. Don't distort my point. I am not saying he became mad because of guns. That is not true. He was a wicked man, but you don't hand a wicked man a weapon, do you?
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  "Oh, they are just property and you have the right to have them?
  What about anti-aircraft guns? Fully automatic rifles? Tanks? Warplanes? Those are just property, after all!"
  NOW you're getting it!
  In the US civil war, the Cannon was the heaviest weapon of its day. People would buy, or make, and own these heavy cannons, decorate their lawns with them, even... It was good practice indeed, since when the fighting broke out, having a cannon meant you didn't join the army as infantry, but as artillery. The lifespan was much longer.
  It's amusing to me that most people can't imagine living without government, because "some other" government would come and invade. I laugh, because we border Canada and Mexico, and neither is worth worrying about, and everyone else has to come across the ocean, to try... And the same people who think it's ridiculous to fight a government also think it inconceivable that citizens would own these heavier implements of combat.
  
  The UN Charter of rights DOES protect thee right to own property, and a gun IS property. It also protects the right to the security of a person. Keep in mind that crimes happen when cops aren't around, and not by accident. Crooks don't want to be caught.
  
  Your next point is where I need to entrench and we have to have some SERIOUS discussion. How on earth would you take away every gun from people? By using more people with guns? When will THOSE people give up their guns? What do you do about people who have guns that nobody knows about?
  Constructing a gun is in no way "magically making one appear".
  
  NOBODY handed the wicked man a gun, he stole it... And wicked men will FOREVER be able to get ahold of deadly weaponry. The trouble is that wicked men shouldn't EVER be allowed to have the ONLY weapons!
  Since Australia banned guns, armed robberies are up 69%, assaults WITH guns are up 28%, MURDERS with gun are up 19%, and home invasions are up 21%.
  Your policy-allies, not mine.
  
  The shooting thing isn't distorting my point, I'm showing you that shooting and guns don't make you evil. Being EVIL makes you evil.
  
  Also:
  on 12/17, a gunman attempted to shoot up a theater. He was killed by a gunowner. This did not make the media.
  Consider the possibility that you are being led by the media.
  
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  pyrodice · 7 years ago
  
  I'd like to throw this in:
  "this year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police will be more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
  -Adolph Hitler, 1935.
  
  NEVER trust the government when it say that their guns are plenty good enough to protect you.
  
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Andy · 7 years ago

Michael, what would YOU have done?

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Christoph · 7 years ago

Ok, so I did some research. Here's what I found:
“On total rapid mass murder aborts, UNARMED citizens are accounting for about 43%,” ... “Armed citizens and police officers about split the remainder. Officers of course are handicapped by both time and distance.” Ron Borsch of SEALE-training academy. He researched about 40 incidents. Not included are incidents involving suicide of the attacker before anybody could contact (verbally, by hitting, shooting at, etc) the shooter.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/07/robert-farago/armed-civilians-account-for-43-of-active-shooter-aborts/ Mistake here: less than 30% armed civilians stopped a shooter, 43 % were unarmed; rest was stopped by the police.

Also, the number of active-shooter-scenarios seems to have increased over time: 7 school attacks between 1891 and 1970; later one every three years to nowadays more than one incident per month.
http://feraljundi.com/1096/law-enforcement-civilian-response-to-active-shooter-situations-from-a-police-officer/
What this guy writes seems to make a lot of sense (from an American view). So I recommend reading it.
Triple Charly over and out.

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Matt · 7 years ago
There are a few inaccuracies with these statements and studies. Keep in mind that in the vast majority of the situations, the active shooter scenarios are occurring in places where guns are banned from being possessed on the premises (ie School, Theater, Mall, Church, etc), the number of "armed" citizens will be skewed on the low end in this analysis. Most who carry concealed will not bring their weapon to one of these facilities as they know it is banned (some still do, but a number of them don't as you can lose your permit if you do carry in these "zones.") In the case of the shooting this last weekend at the temple (which coincidentally occurred near one of the buildings that I work at), the initial police response took several minutes from the time the first call came to them being onsite, in a scenario where the police station is in relative close proximity to the site of the shooting. Keeping this in mind and the fact that police officers were on scene in 3-4 minutes from the time of the initial call, the active shooter was able to kill 6 unarmed victims, wound three others, and shoot the first police officer who arrived on the scene. If police officers would have been farther from the scene, it is possible that many others could have been shot/killed before the first responders would have even been in a position to engage. Call me naive, but I would rather be in a position to defend myself, or at least know that there is a possibility of someone being in the near proximity to defend me and potentially put the active shooter down while minimizing the risk to others. Most folks I know who carry conceal take it very seriously, know the potential risks if they engage and wound or kill an innocent person. The decision to carry conceal does not mean that everyone who carries will engage an active shooter, but it allows them the chance to engage if the situation warrants. As the old saying goes, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight." As shown in this video, you can use makeshift weapons, but if the situation is not an ideal situation, you put your life and others at risk.
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Alex S · 7 years ago

I recently read a very interesting book called "Risk" by Dan Gardner. He talks about how we fear the wrong things, and articles like this are a prime example.

The likelihood of you being killed in a mass shooting is vanishingly small. In a country of over 300 million people, 19 people have been killed in mass shooting this year, which is greater than average. But lets say it was bigger, say it was a hundred people in a year. That means you have a .000033% chance of dying of this sort of thing in a particular year. This is dwarfed by "run of the mill" gun deaths, of which there are an average of 86 per DAY, or 31,200 a year. 17,350 of those are suicides. So this means the average American has only a .0046% chance of getting killed with a gun that isn't his own in a given year. You are almost twice as likely to be killed in a car accident.

The biggest real threat to modern Americans is obesity, which increases rates of heart disease, cancer and other diseases. Heart disease alone kills over 600,000 people a year, 36 times as many as gun murders. If you really want to give people some advice that could save their lives, Michael, tell them to stop eating crap and get some exercise. This article is pointless fantasizing about what should be done in an almost unfathomably unlikely event.

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Bruce Miller · 7 years ago

In Australia no one has guns and we have no shootings of civilians, no one lives in fear and we have no need for videos like these. A few villains manage to shoot each other from time to time and we had one mass killing by a nutter 12 years ago. I am nearly 60 and have never seen or held a gun. I can't believe that it is a natural right to carry a gun any more than it is a natural right to get drunk and drive your car fast.

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Bdoon · 7 years ago
[quote name="Bruce Miller"]In Australia no one has guns and we have no shootings of civilians, no one lives in fear and we have no need for videos like these. A few villains manage to shoot each other from time to time and we had one mass killing by a nutter 12 years ago. I am nearly 60 and have never seen or held a gun. I can't believe that it is a natural right to carry a gun any more than it is a natural right to get drunk and drive your car fast.[/quote]

Well Bruce, the Irish convicts and WASP who guarded them did not have to face Mohawk,Cherokee. Axtecs, etc. when they colonized your nation and did not have to have guns to control Black African slaves. they did hunt with guns but that is different than a tradition and history of man on man violence. It might have been wrong but it happened and most of those colonists, at least in North America, where seeking refuge from those same WASPS who guarded those Irish convicts that James II sent to Australia...lucky you!
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pyrodice · 7 years ago
Get yourself a thousand miles of mexican border and tell me what changes. :P

BTW, are you guys making any progress with YOUR drug war?
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Gump · 7 years ago

I am saddened that the best part of the video was cut. The part where the shooter got the beating of his life from a fire extinguisher and office chair. I love improvised weapons.

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Mak · 7 years ago

Hi,
I m a Malaysian, we lived under a very strict gun control law, like no ordinary people able to own guns except a few very rich or goldsmiths. Gun related homicide is limited to people killed by hired killers n bank robbers. Our country is a democracy BUT the present government is in power for 50 years since independence from the Brits, it is by most of our view a corrupt government and standard of free speech is a joke. If in this coming election it knew it will lose n drum up a reason for a crackdown on all the opposition voices we ll have a condition not unlike Libya and Syria in our land, there will be blood before there will be another real n free election. Giving up the 2nd Amendment ? U Americans better think real hard.

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Suvive the Shooter · 7 years ago

This video does a decent job at giving people some quick things to do in case they are in an active shooter situation, but it only skims the surface. There is so much more to know, not only for personal safety but what if you're the business at which this is taking place? Or if its one of your employees? There are companies that provide formal training in matters such as this, like Training to Survive.

We practice fire drills and every public building you go in has the fire exits and fire escape plan printed somewhere. Fires rarely happen but when they do we are prepared to deal with them. Another commenter spoke about percentages, and he's right. This rarely happens, but when it does it is catastrophic. Isn't it the least we could do to teach people how to identify a threat of this nature and react accordingly. Why isn't this standard workplace policy?

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Lois Riley · 7 years ago

Excellent advice. Please read

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munkey · 6 years ago

People people! This is simply a perfect example of nature... anyone remember the "fight or flight" response? Google it real quick

some run away, some run toward ...simple as that.

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